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Where does the index stand ?

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Update 29th – I missed an important point when i posted on 28th. The data for the index is non-stationary. What it means that the underlying composition of the index is not fixed and the various other parameters such as interest rates, inflation are changing too. As a result the index of 1995 is not the same as the index of 2008. One must be careful from drawing too many conclusions from the data. It is good to analyse the data and have a perspective, but dangerous to make invest decision based on it alone. It easy to say the index is overvalued if the PE is above 30 or undervalued if it drops below 10. However it is not easy to arrive at a firm conclusion if the PE is 15 or 18 or similar such levels.

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I am not planning to make any forecast on where the forecast will be in the next few month. However I have done some analysis on the sensex and nifty index and uploaded it in the google groups. You can check here to download the file Quantitative calculation 2008.xls and check the first worksheet – market valuation.

The numbers for june 2008 are computed for both the sensex and the nifty. A few observations

1. The current PE for the sensex is around 16.8 and 17.7 for nifty. By historical standard ( history is few years back, not a few months) it is not too low. Just about towards the upper end of the PE band

2. The Return on equity (earnings/book) is still pretty high by historical standard. In the 90’s the numbers were generally low in 14-19% range. The last 3-4 years were actually an exception. We had a confluence of positive factors. Low interest rates, high demand growth and high capacity utilization all resulted in high returns. Companies had also re-structured and so net margins and ROE have been high in the past few years. The business cycle may be turning, with interest rates and inflation creeping up. We could revert to an average ROE of 18% (still higher by historical standards)

3. The Earnings growth has been 20%+ in the last few years. This has slowed down to around 10-12% in the current year.

Lets do some scenario analysis. For sake of assumption lets look at some probable scenarios on factors which are based on fundamentals

Book value is around 3540. An ROE of 18% which looks like a fair no. (look at the data for the entire 90s till 2003. I am still assuming a higher number). So normalized earnings is around 640 Rs which is lower than the current number of 820. What this means the earnings growth could slow down over the next few years as ROE reverts to the historical numbers. It is important to remember that ROE, unlike PE is not driven by market pschology. So the historical numbers do count in case of ROE.

For PE looks at the years 96-98. Interest rates were high and market PE ranged between 14-17.

Now for a juicy forecast – lets say earnings grow to around 900 in 2 years (book value will have to grow by 20% per annum and returns will drop to around 18% for that, so it is not impossible) and the PE is around 16-18, we are looking at a range of 14500- 16500.

Keep in mind that the assumptions in arriving at these numbers are still optimistic. We are still assuming reasonable growth in book values, moderate drop in ROE and fairly decent multiples. If things turn out better then we could have another bull market. But if we revert to historical levels, even on some variables such as ROE or PE or growth, then even the current market level is not too low.

Ofcourse other than the data, everything else in this post is a hypothesis. So my guess is as good as yours.

For an analysis of the index 2.5 years back see here

A question on trading

A

06/27

some more observations from an outsider

– i have generally noticed that the younger crowd is more attracted to trading. that does not mean older people dont trade. just that if you talk to 100 young guys who are interested in stock market, a sizeable numbers would be into trading
– A lot of my friends who are into trading have a bias for action. There is the thrill of being right and knowing that pretty soon.
– there is more sense of company. you get to discuss about it with more people. value investing is pretty lonely. you buy ugly beaten down stocks. who wants to discuss companies no one has heard of ?
– media and the environment like brokers also encourage trading. no one will recommend buying a stock and sleeping on it for 5 years.

if you are a trader, please do not take this as a criticism of trading. These are just neutral observations (maybe incorrect) of an outsider. I may have bias against trading, but not a bias against people who do trading.
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I have noticed in general that the number of people interested in trading are far more than those interested in long term investing or value investing. For ex: there are far more blogs on trading than say value investing. There could be an overlap between the two groups too. I however have no aptitude for trading and it does not fit my temprament. I have said so in the past.

I can understand why there are more folks interested in trading. Trading does have an element of excitement. You get to do something quite often, whereas value investing or long term investing is as exciting as watching grass grow or paint dry. So this is my question – What are the average non – leveraged returns experienced by traders over a multi year period ..say 5-6 years (including a bull or bear market) ?

I agree there are several trading strategies and so to lump all of them under ‘trading’ is not smart. But at the risk of sounding dumb (which I am in terms of trading), I was curious to know what kind of returns do most people get ?

Old flames and Old affairs

O

I have had love affairs with Gujarat gas, concor, asian paints, Blue star etc in the past. The original thesis when investing in these stocks played out and the final results were far better than what I had expected.
Then like all affairs, it was time to part. A few of these stocks got overvalued and I moved on.

Now unlike old girlfriends, there is no harm in revisiting these old relationships from time to time. You know the company, its management well and if you held it for a long time, then you would have become comfortable with the business too. So I tend to track these old flames regularly and if I find them to be attractive again, I will go ahead and invest again in them.

They key point when investing in the same stocks again is to avoid becoming emotional with these stocks which have treated you well in the past. It is important to analyse these companies as if you are analysing a new stock and check the price value relationship. If there is a substaintial gap, then I am fairly comfortable re-investing again.

Case in point : Gujarat gas. I sold off this stock by end of 2006 thinking that the stock was overvalued, after having held the stock for 3 years. Then last year on checking the fundamentals, I realised some of the risk in terms of gas pricing had been handled pretty well by the company. In addition the company has expanded its area of operations further and is doing very well. With the current spike in fuel prices, I think the company should do well for the next few years.

So no harm in revisiting these old flames from time to time and re-starting the old relationships again. Ofcourse I mean stocks and not girlfriends 🙂 . Now this is one post my wife should not read (she hardly reads them anyway, so I am safe I guess).

Inflation and debt

I

I have been reviewing the results of some companies and a few points are standing out

– raw material cost, over heads and labor costs are now increasing faster than sales
– Net margins are stable or coming down. Profit growth has slowed
– Debt may start getting repriced soon. As a result interest costs could start increasing

Maybe this is not news. However the above has the following implications

– valuations for the market and several companies is still based on the low inflation, high growth and high ROE environment of 2002-2007. If we have stagflation (high inflation and low growth), we could see prices drop sharply.
– Some companies in response to high growth, have taken on large amounts of debt. If we have stagflation, these companies could get hit very badly. The stock price for such companies could plunge sharply.
– In contrast companies with strong competitive advantage and low debt can maintain margins due to pricing power of their products and low interest costs. Such companies may see lower impact to their stock price.

I am not predicting a long period of high inflation and low growth and cannot be sure if we will see drop in stock prices. History (mid 1990’s) gives us a clue. During mid 90’s in response to high inflation, RBI hiked the interest rates to around 15% and we had a period of low growth from 1997-1999. Stock market returns were also poor during this period.

Does it mean that we should sell our stocks and wait for the clouds to clear. I would say no. The future is never crystal clear. It never was and never will be. What we can, however be sure is that good companies, with strong sustianable competitive advantage, will do well in inflationary and recessionary times.

What such times gives us is low prices due to the pesimissm. These low prices can be used to invest in good companies at attractive prices to build a good portfolio. However this is not easy and not for the faint hearted. If the inflation drops and the growth picks up quickly , then the returns could be good in the short term. However if economic situation takes time to turnaround, then be prepared to wait for a long time for the returns to materialize.

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